Re: For My Own Eyes
 

But I did find this: God created people to be virtuous, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

But has He? Really? I thought we were born into a fallen world, and with a sin nature? Doesn't that contradict the concept that we were created "virtuous"?

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

WE are born with the sinful nature BUT GOD has given us a conscience. There is no contradiction -- the sinful nature is what causes us to look after our own devices. I was not always a Christian -- when I commited sin -- I felt the prick -- even when I did not know the word of God.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

In the end, if one concedes that there does exist a conscience -- a fact that can be proven outside the Bible. Then the ultimate question comes -- where does the conscience originate from? The most logical conclusion is: There can be no ultimate law without an ultimate law giver.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

God gave us the desires that the eternal punishment he administers is meant for... kinda circular...

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

Who conceded that God gave these desires? Do you want to talk about circular reasoning? Let us only talk about these beliefs using logical syllogisms. Let us see which arguments are circular.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

If God created us, and we are born with a sin nature (which is something that we have no control over, we cannot chose to be born without a sin nature. And if having a sin nature causes us to commit sin, then how can it be said that we have free will, when we have no choice but by our very nature to committ sin.

Brads point was that God seemingly creates us as flawed, and then turns around and punishes us for those flawed.

Yes, you may argue that God created Adam and Eve without flaw and without sin nature, and they chose to sin. However, we were not given the same choice.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

Thanks Mich... and it all comes down to us having to apologize/"repent" for being born (with a sin-nature). I'd rather go to hell.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

Just remember, there are no non-believers in Hell.

Re: For My Own Eyes
 

I just checked my hotmail account, and I had an email from Michelin. My first thought was that Mich had sent me a personal email, but it was about tires.